College of Law Dean Stepping Down

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1. Comment by UIUC law student on 5 June 2007 at 10:27 am:

   Yes, the only reason this is significant at all is because her quasi-husband in Michael Moore, who is one of the country’s most prominent legal minds.

   She is almost completely worthless on her own, and makes the law school’s public face look more like a makeup laden, lover-swingin’ brothel than a book laden academic tower.

   Sure she’s good at fundraising, what kind of prostitute isn’t?

2. Comment by Anonymous on 5 June 2007 at 10:43 am:

   Pathetic. Truly pathetic. “uiuc law student” here demonstrates the old adage, “Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” Like any human being, Dean Hurd has her flaws. But uiuc law student’s deep and probing analysis of Dean Hurd’s tenure suggests strongly that s/he has absolutely no idea what s/he’s talking about.

   While Moore is admittedly in a class by himself (and would be at even tonier institutions — he’s a truly world-class talent), Hurd is a better-than-average scholar, well-deserving of a top-20 appointment on her own. She is also a top-notch Dean, though not in the oozing-bearded-gravitas-and-quiet -reflection tradition. Instead, she’s a hard-charger, and she can be abrasive. She also shook the institution out of a ten-year funk, rescuing it from the quiet slide to oblivion waiting for all law schools that get a little too satisfied with themselves.

   As for the prostitute comment, well, the ad hominem is always a nice fallback when you’re talking out of your butt anyway, isn’t it?

3. Comment by Anonymous on 5 June 2007 at 11:17 am:

   I was a law student at uiuc before and during Dean Hurd’s early tenure.

   Yeah, she gave us a little bling where we needed it.

   The problems we faced were: Severely overcrowded classrooms (as in, students without actual chairs available), very poor class structure or curriculum guidance, and limited resources for clinical or trial ad classes and for career development.

   In other words, if all you want is a diploma stamped University of Illinois, yup, the law school is a fine place. But if your needs are a little bit different from that a run-of-the-mill law student, you quickly find how far bling won’t go.

   The fact that she waltzed into her appointment several months late, with the law school building literally falling down due to lack of budget/attention (toilets and ventilation not working properly), didn’t inspire us with hope.

   Wait, this was the dean who gave us beer parties on Friday.

   Never mind then.

   Beer makes everything better.

4. Comment by tet on 5 June 2007 at 11:54 am:

   You know, I was a bit taken aback yesterday by the posting of an ad hominem attack which was, fortunately removed.

   I am, however, somewhat dismayed by today’s commentary section which is displaying some of the same reprehensible content.

   This ranks up here with Brian’s post-mortem attack on Falwell. We’re better than this–this blog should be about the exchange of ideas rather than to debate whether or not so-and-so politician is a dumbass or whether or not a dean made the law school look like such-and-such (which may be important to those of you who are in the law school, or are alumni, but trust me, I don’t think the rest of the world really cares.)

   There have been some questions raised as to whether or not her emphasis on standardized test scores diminished the real diversity of students’ experiences and talents or not.

   It was pointed out to me earlier today by an alumni that certain people I respect probably would not have gained entry into law school today because of her changes, while other, less qualified individuals would.

   What do you think about this?

   In other words, let’s write like grown-ups rather than sounding like college sophomores. We do not have to be stupid in order to be controversial–some of our ideas certainly can do that for us all by themselves.

   Tom

5. Comment by Augur on 5 June 2007 at 1:05 pm:

   Apart from losing several great professors (Kinports, Ross, McAdams, etc.) Dean Hurd certainly left the law school better than she found it. She won me over with one of her earliest moves, buying chess sets for the commons. Her take a professor to lunch initiative improved the sense of community at the law school.

   I would like to see a reduced emphasis on the LSAT in admissions, but that will likely not change unless US News changes it’s ranking system. Mr. Pless in admissions is a tremendously thoughtful guy, and I’d trust his judgment 180 times more than I trust the LSAT.

   My only criticisms of Dean Hurd are related to accessibility and the kind of back and forth that is encouraged between students and administrators. Faculty members at the college of law overall are tremendously accessible. Not so with the administration.

   One of the best ways to judge the quality of an administrator is how they react to being challenged in some ways by their students. Dean Rossi responded to any inquiries about law school expenditures with defensive reluctance. Many questioned whether the expansion of the library was cost effective - I’m not 100% sure of the exact dimensional changes, but they tore an exterior wall out in the middle of the winter to make the library like 20 feet longer. If you’re going to tear out a wall, you should get a little more bang for your buck then 20 feet.

   Several of my peers had problems with Dean Vermillion. I fortunately never had any difficulty with her, but from what I heard from friends that I trust, she has a propensity for being vindictive. I wasn’t particularly impressed by her innovation with student programming, or her desire to build a robust community within the college. Those few who dared challenged her ended up regretting it. I haven’t met a single student who said Dean V. made her life better or her time at Illinois more valuable. The law school would be improved by Dean Vermillion’s departure.

   I would have also liked to see the U of I utilize more students in its development efforts. They are very cautious about which students are asked to help out, and that’s a reasonable decision, but getting more students involved would make them feel they had more of a stake in the college of law long term.

   Overall, the college of law is losing a strong academic and a fierce champion. I felt confident in her leadership, particularly regarding development, but I have every confidence that our excellent Provost will find a great leader for the years ahead.

6. Comment by Billy Joe Mills on 5 June 2007 at 1:10 pm:

   Regarding the first comment, I have thought about the possibility of deleting it but have decided not to. I have long maintained a JS Mill, classical liberal type of approach to comments. I err dramatically on the side of allowing speech. That first post has a bit of rumor and slander in it, but the comment still has relevance to the main post and it expresses an opinion of a public figure, albeit a crude opinion.

   The first commenter has been embarrassed and ridiculed by subsequent commenters, which is much more poignant punishment than my deletion of his/her comment.

7. Comment by Anonymous on 5 June 2007 at 1:16 pm:

   My comment above (#2) contributed to the “ad hominem” problem, and I apologize. I used ad hominem myself to demonstrate just how wrong the first commenter was to approach the issue that way. But I was a bit too subtle and snarky. Sorry.

   With respect to comment 3, it’s a bit hard to figure out what the commenter means. New Deans do not
   come with a new physical plant attached; that takes money (something Dean Hurd was extremely effective at raising, and something that will be used to get a new building soon). As for the comments regarding curricular development, etc., the full response is far longer than a blog comment will permit. But I’d suggest, again, that Dean Hurd has been remarkably effective where it really matters, and that the commenter’s focus on different/special needs demonstrates a certain naivete about the job Dean Hurd was brought in to do by central admin., and the mission of a law school like Illinois (as opposed to dozens of other fine, but less nationally focused schools).
   There is little doubt that Dean Hurd has been tone-deaf at times; I suspect her approval ratings would be higher if she’d played that particular game a little bit better, felt people’s pain a little more. But an enormous percentage of the criticism leveled at Dean Hurd is born of ignorance, of unjustified personal animosity, or both. Finally, I’d suggest that any broad-based institutional criticisms of the sort commenter 3 seems to be making are better directed at the University as a whole. They wanted Hurd to do exactly what she did.

   Tom — I’m not sure what to make of your point about test scores, diversity, and the composition of the student body over time. There is no truly Pareto-optimal class composition; accepting the high-LSAT slacker in place of the low-LSAT Peace Corps volunteer has an indeterminate effect on the intellectual climate of an institution. Something is lost, something is gained, and we’ll never know which mix is “better,” even if we can somehow agree on the criteria used to define “better” in the first place.

   You suggest that other “less qualified” folks have gotten in under the “new” LSAT-first admissions criteria. By what measure? How do you define “less qualified?” Law school admissions is a spectacularly inexact science; there are dozens of high-profile flops from every top school, and there are hundreds or even thousands of remarkably successful lawyers who succeed in spite of (or sometimes even because of) an admissions snub or mistake. The focus on LSAT and normed GPA, while distasteful to a certain segment of the population, is essentially a best-odds play, especially given the ubiquity of law school rankings and the self-reinforcing nature of the admissions process.

8. Comment by Augur on 5 June 2007 at 1:23 pm:

   Anon 2 & 6: Do you know if the LSAT counts for more w/ US News than GPA? In the last several years U of I’s LSAT has increased dramatically while the GPA has slipped. The LSAT increase is celebrated and the GPA slip isn’t mentioned.

   I assume this is part of the numbers game, and I’d rather be from a #25 law school than a #35 law school, so I’m reluctantly inclined to accept the pattern, but there is some folly in weighing success or failure in 5 hours on a Saturday morning more heavily than 4+ years of educational achievement levels.

   Granted, the difference in the likelihood of success between test-taking automatons and well-rounded, high achieving, involved students w/ a lower LSAT score is at least somewhat subjective. Do you think the more LSAT driven schools are turning out more successful lawyers than similarly situated schools that take a more holistic approach (northwestern even does interviews).

   Thanks for your insightful comments.

9. Comment by tet on 5 June 2007 at 1:44 pm:

   Anon #2–I was not saying that I personally believed in anything. I was commenting that I had been told of these possible issues and was asking for peoples’ opinions on the matter.

   My particular Ivory Tower is over on the Quad. I know little to nothing about the law school, except that at one time they had a marvellous chef and that some of my friends have or are going to school there. I believe I was in the building once during my past 25 years of association with the UofI.

   It was an attempt to get things back on track, in other words. I am learning quite a bit from your comments.

   Speaking of grades–I just read in Zay Smith’s column in the Sun-Times that more than half of the grades given out at Harvard this past year were As.

   Hmmm. If they weren’t graduate students (for whom a C is a failing grade), would this mean that Harvard is now the Ivy League equivalent of Lake Woebegone?

   Tom

10. Comment by Anonymous on 5 June 2007 at 1:48 pm:

    2 & 6 here:

    Let me put it this way: The admissions decisions at virtually every law school with national aspirations attempt to maximize USNWR effects, and Illinois is no exception. The admissions folks here know exactly what each tenth of a point will do. To the extent you see other highly-ranked law schools doing interviews (I’m aware of at least one top-10 that does them, in addition to NW), it’s really a financial thing, and weak-endowment schools like Illinois (compared to its peer institutions, UI is poor, hence Dean Hurd’s primary duty was raising money) often don’t have the funds. If you could talk to the folks in the admissions office, I’m sure they’d tell you that in a perfect world, they’d be able to do interviews to improve their success rate. Anything that lowers error is good. But in the absence of an additional FTE or three to run that program, you do the best you can with what you’ve got.

    And though it hurts a bit to say so, I do think that the LSAT, however flawed (your “five hours on a Saturday morning comment is particularly cutting) is the best predictor of performance in law school. It’s color-blind (we can have that argument another day if you like), institution-blind, and it does a remarkably good job of identifying and quantifying the kinds of talent many lawyers need to succeed in their jobs. It’s far from perfect, though, and I’ve met a number of extremely talented and successful lawyers whose scores weren’t all that high. The problem: no one has come up with a useful way of measuring those intangibles at the admissions stage (the same problem exists for law firms hiring lawyers just out of school — law school performance, like LSAT score, is subject to both Type I and Type II errors — you get some false positives and some false negatives).

    As for the faculty losses, I’d humbly suggest they fall into two different categories. Professors Ross and Kinports, while beloved and effective classroom instructors, were not astoundingly productive academics. That still matters more to law school administrations and university administrations (despite the fact that student tuition pays the salaries). On the other hand, McAdams, Fennell, and Pfander were the real deal academically, and their loss will hurt the school. At the same time, they are each leaving for substantially higher-ranked institutions (U of C and Northwestern), and that’s a perpetual risk for every school other than Yale.

11. Comment by illinikc33 on 5 June 2007 at 2:03 pm:

    Hey Anon, do you have any data to back this comment, “I do think that the LSAT, however flawed (your ‘five hours on a Saturday morning’ comment is particularly cutting) is the best predictor of performance in law school.”

    If so, I would be dying to see it.

12. Comment by tet on 5 June 2007 at 2:07 pm:

    Kevin, let me make a comment on standardized testing, also, while I’m thinking about it.

    In my discipline, we’ve not been allowed to give placement tests for some time because they were seen as placing students in the various tiers of courses unfairly.

    We did some research going back over the last twenty years, and found that the final grade in our Freshman courses tracked with over 95% correlation to their ACT Math score.

    This was in spite of a four-tier approach in our courses (with remedial, non-major, major and advanced major levels.) The correlation was across the board, and the slope was actually very close to the same numerical value for each of the courses.

    The last few years we’ve used the past ACT value at the B/C line of a course as the spot where we recommended that a student move down one tier.

    Now, this is not an enforced recommendation–we still allow students to stretch themselves and take one tier higher than recommended if they really want to do so. This new policy has reduced the amount of mid-semester drops and transfers by about 25% from previous years.

    This does not mean, of course, that the LSAT is necessarily also the best tracker. My example does show, however, that there are certainly some situations in which standardized tests are excellent predictors of student abilities.

    Tom

13. Comment by illinikc33 on 5 June 2007 at 2:18 pm:

    Oh, my question was not meant to be antagonistic, I’m just wondering whether or not there exists said data somewhere. If a correlation like you described does exist, then by all means it should be used to benefit the students. Then I’d probably stop bitching about the nonsense that is the LSAT haha.

    In the LSAT’s case though, I wouldn’t outright assume such a correlation, mainly because it’s a logic test rather than a quantitative one. It also can’t measure ability and willingness to work your ass off for 3 years (or at least 1), which is what law school boils down to.

14. Comment by tet on 5 June 2007 at 2:25 pm:

    Sure, I understand, Kevin, but the ACT Math score also doesn’t measure one’s resistance to pressure from other students in the dorm to smoke dope with ‘em, or give any real idea of whether or not they know how to do research.

    Yet, it still gives a correlation for us that most people would give their eyeteeth for in any kind of sociological study.

    This would indicate that at least in the case of my discipline, all that other stuff drops out of the equation and the mathematical intelligence peak combined with the depth of previous education are the deciding factors by an order of magnitude or so.

    It is entirely possible that there might be similar important considerations involved in law school involving the logic intelligence peak. I haven’t seen a sample test, so I can’t speak to it specifically.

    Tom

15. Comment by Augur on 5 June 2007 at 2:32 pm:

    It does measure your ability to work your ass off to prepare for one high pressure test, and your families ability to hire you a tutor from Kaplan and/or Princeton review. The first tracks to success in law school, and the second sure helps with life.

    I say this as someone who did pretty well on the LSAT: it measures a few things accurately 1) reading speed/comprehension; 2) logic skills; 3) ability to perform under time pressure; 4) ability to master a beatable test upon practicing for a long time.

    Being a great lawyer requires tenacity in research, communication skills, writing and story telling ability, and a host of other factors more important than merely being a slightly better logician than the next guy.

    Also, many students experience a huge variance when they take test. Anon 2- any predictions re: the impact of law schools taking the highest scores if an applicant takes the test multiple times (instead of averaging)

16. Comment by Allan Niemerg on 5 June 2007 at 3:18 pm:

    Personally, I’m a big believer in using LSAT and GPA as a way to pick students. It’s not that I don’t believe that schools should chose the students who have the best potential to become outstanding lawyers and leaders, but because I don’t think there are more efficient ways to find those candidates. Hands down, the LSAT and GPA are the most accurate and cost-effective ways to determine future success. A decent third is the written essay which can reveal some useful information about writing ability, drive, or special circumstances.

    As a student who passed through that admissions process, I understand how frustrating this reality can be. It sucks to have your whole future determined by two numbers. It sucks that one can’t meet an admissions officer and make one’s case, or at least be seen as a human being. The essay, the only chance an applicant gets to make his or her case, is simply not satisfying. Often it involves answering questions that are posed or involves making decisions about which few things to focus on in the essay; it never feels like a complete picture.

    But I’ve made my peace with this process. It sucked not getting into Illinois, especially since had I been applying only a few years before I probably would have gotten in easy. It appears that Dean Hurd may have driven the changes that denied me admission. Still, if I were running a law school right now, I would do the same thing. As flawed as the rankings are, they matter. And even if they didn’t exist, there still would be intense competition between schools on things that matter and things that don’t. As the leader of the law school, Deans have to fight this fight and they have to fight to win.

    If they didn’t, they would start to lose resources and top students to schools that fight harder. One of things I like about my law school, Chicago-Kent, is that they are determined to put up a good fight. For a decade or more now, each year’s class has been more qualified than the last. The incoming class median LSAT for last fall is comparable to Illinois’ at the beginning of the decade. They have done everything in their power to recruit—and keep—good students at the school, in part by, awarding a ridiculous amount of scholarships. I hope they keep it up; I would love for my degree to be even more valuable 10 years after I get it.

    So, faced with the need to compete, I think it’s reasonable for schools to weigh students based on LSAT/GPA. It isn’t perfect, and can’t be, but it is the cheapest and most effective system out there. Students hate it, but ultimately, I think, accept it.

17. Comment by tet on 5 June 2007 at 5:25 pm:

    Allan, being at a “lesser” school than Illinois has certainly not interfered with your ability to present a sound and reasoned argument.

    I always look forward to hearing your thoughts on the various subjects that we discuss here in the blog. You’re a good egg, I respect you.

    Tom

18. Comment by Anonymous on 5 June 2007 at 5:57 pm:

    Hey Tom, why dont you just glue your lips to his ass

19. Comment by tet on 5 June 2007 at 6:18 pm:

    Truth is truth. I have never been accused of holding back either criticism or praise when it is deserved.

    Tom

20. Comment by rumor law boy on 5 June 2007 at 6:54 pm:

    rumor has it that the faculty didn’t like Hurd and that perhaps this latent pressure was too much for her ego to handle…but the real shame is losing moore.

21. Comment by Augur on 5 June 2007 at 9:20 pm:

    Allan is a good example of someone Illinois should have “taken a chance” on. He was in a really tough major, that’s tough on your GPA. Law schools have adjustments to boost your raw GPA if you went to IL so it’s higher than someone w/ the same GPA who went to SIU-E (I’ve still never met a smart person who went to SIU-E, I’m not saying they aren’t out there, I just haven’t met them), but there is no adjustment, so far as I know, to adjust for the “no shit” difference in GPA between a Speech major and a Chemistry or Electrical Engineering major.

    If any prelaw students are reading this, do not get multiple majors. Sure you might want to learn about more things, but the increased course load will hurt your GPA, and law schools care about 2#s far more than whether you have 2 majors or 3, or even a masters degree.

    I’m a big fan of the U of I admissions folks, they do the very best they can on too small of a budget. I just wish we could get U.S. News to change the ranking system to create more fitting incentives. Enough on admissions, I’ll try to stop harping on that now.

    Do any of you have any kind of breakdown of the fund raising success during Hurd’s tenure?

22. Comment by kofi the they should admit people to law school based on their ability to come up with anon names on 5 June 2007 at 11:30 pm:

    I’m late to the party and didn’t both to read all the comments, which brings me to my first point:

    All you anons, get a better anon name. I can’t follow conversations that go “Anon 6, Anon 2 here, let’s go yell at Anon 1 and afterwards go out for drinks with Anon 3 and 7. Oh did you hear what Anon 4 did during the meeting yesterday?” Somewhere in there my head explodes.

    Regarding illinikc’s challenge about the LSAT being the best predictor of success: there’s a study out there somewhere that says just that. I’d find it for you, but it would starve you of the fun of finding it yourself. The conclusion isn’t exactly shocking: both GPA and LSAT are poor at predicting success. As is perceived quality of undergraduate university, undergraduate major, or age at matriculation. They all suck. The LSAT just sucks the least. The statistical correlation is very low, but the LSAT’s is the “least low.”

    Finally, was the anon who talked about Hurd walking into a collapsing building making a joke? The class rooms are still over crowded (routinely not enough chairs) and the ventilation still sucks. On the bright side it seems they rectified the toilet situation.

23. Comment by kofi the making illinois brighter or more brilliant (or as Billy Joe would say: brillianter) drive on 5 June 2007 at 11:31 pm:

    Augur, she just helped bring in 23 million didn’t she?

24. Comment by kofi the i'm just running out of names at this point on 5 June 2007 at 11:51 pm:

    ok last post I promise: Leiter on Hurd 2/9/06

    I am hard-pressed to think of a law school more completely transformed in the last few years than Illinois. From a school that had almost no presence in interdisciplinary legal scholarship (other than longtime distinguished faculty member, Thomas Ulen), Illinois has built up a large cohort of junior and senior scholars working in law and economics (broadly construed) and law and philosophy (broadly construed).

    His recent post here

25. Comment by kofi the i'm just running out of names at this point on 5 June 2007 at 11:51 pm:

    ok last post I promise: Leiter on Hurd 2/9/06

    I am hard-pressed to think of a law school more completely transformed in the last few years than Illinois. From a school that had almost no presence in interdisciplinary legal scholarship (other than longtime distinguished faculty member, Thomas Ulen), Illinois has built up a large cohort of junior and senior scholars working in law and economics (broadly construed) and law and philosophy (broadly construed).

    His recent post here

26. Comment by kofi the i'm just running out of names at this point on 5 June 2007 at 11:51 pm:

    ok last post I promise: Leiter on Hurd 2/9/06

    I am hard-pressed to think of a law school more completely transformed in the last few years than Illinois. From a school that had almost no presence in interdisciplinary legal scholarship (other than longtime distinguished faculty member, Thomas Ulen), Illinois has built up a large cohort of junior and senior scholars working in law and economics (broadly construed) and law and philosophy (broadly construed).

    His recent post here

27. Comment by Allan Niemerg on 5 June 2007 at 11:53 pm:

    Thanks Tom, Augur.

    Perhaps there should be a “major” differential similar to the school differential, but I don’t think that I got a 3.0 undergrad GPA because I was in a tough major. No, I got a B average because I did B average work. And frankly, B average work is probably the equivalent of C average work of an easier major. For some reason, I’ve never really put the amount of effort into my studies that I should. Maybe I’m a little lazy, maybe I have a learning problem, maybe I just don’t give a damn. I don’t know. But law school has definitely disabused me of the notion that my grades aren’t an accurate reflection of my work. Generally, they are.

    I would definitely concur with Augur about multiple majors. If you’re going to go to law school, play it safe. Even if one decides to pursue patent law, which requires a technical background, one should take electrical engineering and take the easiest classes possible.

    As to school rankings, there are two different issues that I see: 1) Does it make any sense to rank schools to begin with? 2.) If so, how should the rankings be determined?

    Personally, I think that ranking schools is a necessary exercise. One of the most important questions for potential applicants is the prestige of a law school. The U.S. news rankings are a rough approximation of that information. (Although, according to vault.com, both Chicago-Kent and Illinois are under-rated and therefore their US News rankings do not reflect their prestige.) Because I think this prestige information is useful to students, I think ranking is helpful despite US News’ lousy methodology.

    Which raises the question: How should law schools be ranked? Here’s where I think law school deans can marginalize U.S. News. How? Personalized rankings. Instead of arbitrary weights that US News gives to various attributes, why not create a website that lets the user arbitrarily weigh different factors and then rank schools accordingly? It would certainly beat the US News rankings and would create opportunities for the various schools to distinguish themselves for certain criteria.

28. Comment by kofi the remember when i said i ran out of names? i lied on 6 June 2007 at 6:18 pm:

    An article on USNews and law school rankings

29. Comment by Anonymous on 9 June 2007 at 3:16 pm:

    Maybe with a new dean they’ll finally do some well needed house cleaning. As an alum, I’d be very happy to see Vermillion get the axe. I didn’t recall any student who actually liked her. She’s got a vindictive mean streak in her and is in serious need of professional help.

30. Comment by Vermillion's a pig... on 9 June 2007 at 3:28 pm:

    I couldn’t agree more with the prior comment. Vermillion is not a nice person — and she’s also a pig!

31. Comment by Vermillion's a pig... on 9 June 2007 at 3:28 pm:

    I couldn’t agree more with the prior comment. Vermillion is not a nice person — and she’s also a pig!

32. Comment by Vermillion's a pig... on 9 June 2007 at 3:28 pm:

    I couldn’t agree more with the prior comment. Vermillion is not a nice person — and she’s also a pig!

33. Comment by linden on 9 June 2007 at 8:27 pm:

    Hey everyone. I’ve been in practice now almost seven years and I’ve found my U of I education prepared me quite solidly for the field, stacking up well even against that of attorneys I’ve met who went to higher-ranked schools. I hate to say it, but I’ve come to believe the rankings are actually measuring something real. There’s not a lot of difference in quality between the educations of people who went to U of I and people who went to Boalt Hall, but there’s a big difference between the educations of people who went to U of I and people who went to, say, Monterey College of Law.

    I went to the College of Law from 1997-2000. Thomas Mengler was the dean then. My perception has been that the place went a bit downhill after he left — a lot of turnover in deans and faculty. Is there any truth to that?

    The ventilation was always bad, however.

    P. S. — Nice talk, UIUC Law Student. Nothing puts a high-ranking woman in her place like referring to her as a prostitute and making fun of her makeup. I’m sure if Dean Hurd knew she’d cry until she smeared her mascara, the poor dear.

34. Comment by Anonymous on 12 June 2007 at 3:43 pm:

    I heard she was forced out due to some unethical/immoral practices. I think it’s pathetic how the University is covering up what really happened. We all know what really happened.

35. Comment by Anonymous on 12 June 2007 at 4:46 pm:

    Why the refernces to Dean Hurd being a prostitute?

36. Comment by Anonymous on 20 June 2007 at 9:44 pm:

    Why is there references to Virginia Vermillion being a pig? Comparing her to a pig is an insult to pigs. Like others have said — let’’s hope the new Dean cleans house. Getting rid of Vermillion will certainly free up more space in the law school.

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